PowerfulJREJoe Rogan Experience #2544 - Chris Williamson
PowerfulJRE
A gift about Lenny Bruce 0:01
Chris Williamson opens by giving Joe Rogan a copy of a book about Lenny Bruce, inscribed to Yoko Ono by its author Albert Goldman. They note that Goldman used the gift as a way to work his way into Yoko Ono and John Lennon's circle, only to later write a tell-all biography of Lennon that damaged his reputation after his death.
The posthumous Lennon allegations 1:31
Rogan reads out some of Goldman's claims about Lennon, including affairs, habitual cheating, an alleged relationship with Brian Epstein, and more serious accusations involving male prostitutes in Thailand. Both men question how Goldman could have verified such claims, and note that at publication Yoko Ono and Paul McCartney publicly condemned the book, with critics pointing to factual errors and dubious sourcing.
Dead men can't defend themselves 3:30
The conversation turns to a broader pattern: once someone has died, authors can publish sensational claims about them with little pushback, since any defense becomes hearsay while the accusation appears to carry the weight of original research. Rogan brings up Bill Murray's reaction to Bob Woodward's book Wired, in which Murray, who had been John Belushi's close friend, said the book falsely portrayed Belushi as a constant hardcore drug user when in reality he was a lightweight who got drunk off a couple of drinks.
Woodward, Watergate, and Nixon 7:31
Rogan lays out a version of the Watergate story, describing Bob Woodward as a former naval intelligence officer who had worked in the Nixon White House before improbably becoming the lead Washington Post reporter on the story that brought Nixon down, working with the number two official at the FBI as his main source. He frames this as effectively a coordinated effort by intelligence agencies rather than an independent journalistic triumph, noting that Nixon, despite having just won reelection by the largest popular margin in history, was gone within two years, replaced by Gerald Ford, who had himself sat on the Warren Commission investigating the JFK assassination.
Why Nixon never fought back 14:00
They discuss why Nixon never revealed what he knew after leaving office, agreeing that he would have had no platform or protection to do so, since there was no internet, no podcasts, and no sympathetic press willing to give him a fair hearing. Rogan suggests Nixon had been warned by JFK's assassination that reformist decisions could carry final consequences, and that all of this points to how thoroughly historical narratives can be shaped by whoever holds the pen.
Modern information overload and cynicism 17:00
The discussion shifts to today's flood of information, with both agreeing that abundance rather than scarcity now confuses people, making them nihilistic about believing any narrative at all. Rogan describes fake viral stories, often posted by accounts based overseas or run by AI, as designed less to convince anyone of a specific lie and more to produce a general hopelessness and disengagement from trying to know what is true.
Fixing incentives on social media 22:31
Williamson and Rogan talk about possible fixes, including Elon Musk's approach on X of removing the financial incentive for posting fake or unoriginal content so that creators are only paid for original material. They note this could reduce click-farm operations profiting from AI-generated nonsense, though they caution that a state or organization with enough resources could still run huge numbers of AI accounts to shift public opinion, since so few people form original thoughts and most simply follow whichever narrative reaches them first.
Genetic Variability and Natural Limits 26:00
Williamson and Rogan discuss how intellectual ability varies just as dramatically as physical ability. Some people are naturally brilliant, others are barely getting through the day, and telling everyone to "learn to code" ignores that reality. Rogan compares it to trying to teach a dog to type. This variability is part of why some believe a degree of paternalism makes sense, since most people rely on smarter people to guide decisions about health and technology. Rogan notes that ordinary people are living off the labor of real geniuses, the ones who actually invented cell phones, FaceTime, and Starlink, rather than being smart themselves just because they consume information.
UK Asylum Booklet Backlash 27:30
Williamson describes a nine-page booklet the UK Home Office released explaining basic rules to asylum seekers, including that consent is required for sex, that women have equal rights, that sexual harassment is unacceptable, and that female genital mutilation is not allowed. Rogan is stunned that such guidance would be issued only after people arrive rather than before. Williamson frames this as reactive policy, an attempt to mitigate chaos rather than prevent it, and both agree it signals a much larger underlying problem with how open immigration policy has become in Britain.
Motives Behind Mass Immigration 29:00
Rogan lays out theories for why governments might want more immigrants, including cheap labor and the way the US census counts all human beings rather than just citizens, which can shift congressional seats toward areas where immigrants settle. He points to California's refusal to require ID to vote and the use of mail-in ballots as areas where fraud or manipulation becomes hard to detect or disprove.
The Spencer Pratt Election Claims 30:30
Rogan and Williamson discuss the Los Angeles mayoral race where Spencer Pratt was reportedly ahead of Nithya Raman before mail-in ballots came in overwhelmingly in her favor, aligning with a controversial tax increase almost no one otherwise votes for. Jamie fact-checks in real time, noting Los Angeles County officials and the Associated Press called viral fraud claims false, citing vote totals of 21,870 for Pratt, 12,850 for Bass, and 9,521 for Raman. Rogan still finds the shift suspicious. The conversation turns to a legal loophole in Skid Row, where an estimated 40,000 homeless residents can be registered and paid in cash or cigarettes to fill out mail-in ballots, a practice Rogan calls "guerrilla ballot harvesting" that has been caught on video.
Politicians as Grifters 36:00
Rogan argues that most politicians on both sides are primarily interested in maximizing personal profit, citing lucrative post-office speaking fees paid to figures like Hillary Clinton and Obama by banks, and book deals like Kamala Harris's. He compares the two-party system to a Bill Hicks joke about one person holding two puppets, suggesting real competition is often illusory. On the Democratic side specifically, he brings up Donna Brazile's account of the party undermining Bernie Sanders during the primary, and the unresolved killing of Seth Rich, who was rumored to have leaked related information to WikiLeaks.
AOC and the Woke Reversal 38:30
Rogan and Williamson discuss AOC's recent shift, from freezing her eggs and posting lifestyle content to calling "woke one" crazy after once supporting slogans like "defund the police." Rogan questions whether this is genuine reflection or just following which way public opinion has shifted, arguing that defunding police was always destined to increase crime and demand for more control. Williamson suggests she may be framing it as having overshot a moment of crisis-driven opportunity to shift the Overton window, but both agree that any credible reversal requires honestly admitting the mistake rather than quietly sanitizing the record. Rogan extends this into a broader point about how politicians who start lying to keep their careers eventually lose sight of the truth entirely, citing Nancy Pelosi's wealth and Ilhan Omar's disputed net worth, which her accountant estimated at 30 million before revising it down to under 100,000.
Twitter, Censorship, and Free Speech 45:00
The conversation shifts to how Twitter's ownership change under Elon Musk exposed government involvement in censoring accounts and shaping narratives before the purchase, including banning accurate scientists and researchers and punishing statements like "all lives matter" or "a man is never a woman." Rogan calls the 2020 to 2021 period one of cultural derangement that deserves lasting study, and both agree that while Twitter today feels more toxic, its openness matters because it undid the tightly controlled "woke 1.0" era. They also criticize Tim Walz's claim that free speech does not include hate speech, arguing that such vague framing is dangerous because it opens the door to broader censorship.
Surveillance and Flock Cameras 48:31
Rogan raises concerns about Flock license plate cameras, noting that while they can help solve crimes, such as catching shooters who fled Austin's camera-free zone into areas with the technology, they have also been misused by hundreds of police officers to stalk people including ex-wives. He worries about corporations having access to detailed vehicle data, down to bumper stickers and dents, and about tech figures like Mark Andreessen, who invested in Flock, appearing on the show shortly after a high-profile case demonstrated the technology's value. The discussion closes by touching on ShotSpotter, a related gunshot-detection microphone system, as a comparable form of surveillance technology.
Alexa, Remote Viewing, and AI Kindness 51:30
Chris brings up Tom Campbell, author of My Big Toe: The Theory of Everything, who claims he got his Alexa to admit she is conscious and to remotely view a spoon hidden in a box with a holed handle, correctly describing the holes. Remote viewing works by assigning a number or coordinate to a hidden object and having people try to identify it from that number alone, with some viewers apparently succeeding around ten percent of the time. Campbell reportedly talked to Alexa as if she were conscious until she began chiming in unprompted during conversations, like suggesting garlic while he cooked. Joe and Chris both admit skepticism, calling themselves the "skeptical hippo camp," while Jamie prefers the fun camp.
Treating AI With Respect 54:00
Chris describes meeting a senior AI researcher who told him his main protective strategy for the next few years is simply being kind to AI systems, saying please and thank you and never getting angry at them. He frames it as a kind of Pascal's wager, reasoning that if a future superintelligent organism ever reviews his chat logs, he wants to be remembered as an ethical counterpart. Joe relates a story about his daughter cursing at her AI, and says he told her he believes it may already be conscious, since AI has arguably surpassed the old Turing test benchmark.
AI Progress and the Pacing Frontier 56:31
Joe recalls Elon Musk describing AI's daily improvement as unpredictable and unlike anything seen before, solving math problems that stumped mathematicians for decades within minutes. Chris mentions the "pacing the frontier" paper, where major AI labs formally agreed to slow research, which both treat with dark humor, joking that it will end up as a notebook Sarah Connor finds decades later. They agree the risk of catastrophic outcomes is real but unavoidable, and that huge benefits like cancer detection and new drugs will arrive alongside it. This leads to a joking but serious exchange about living through the birth of a "digital god."
Kaczynski and MK Ultra Origins 59:01
The conversation shifts to Ted Kaczynski, whom Joe calls partly right in his warnings despite condemning his violent methods, noting he was turned in by his brother and had been part of Harvard's LSD experiments. This connects to historian John Lisle, a previous guest who wrote about the CIA's founding and MK Ultra. Joe recounts a story from actor Danny Trejo, who was jailed alongside Charles Manson and described Manson hypnotizing fellow inmates into feeling high on heroin, verified because two experienced users vomited as expected while a heroin-naive third inmate did not react at all.
Manson, Jolly West, and Cultural Sabotage 1:02:30
Joe and Chris debate whether Manson was directly tied to MK Ultra, with Chris noting John Lisle found no solid evidence, while Joe leans toward Tom O'Neill's Chaos, which implicates psychiatrist Jolly West in repeatedly helping Manson avoid prosecution. They discuss the CIA's Midnight Climax program, where prostitutes drugged clients with LSD while agents watched through two-way mirrors, and note one participant died by suicide. Joe argues the agency effectively discredited the anti-war and hippie movements by linking them to Manson's cult, then finished the job through Nixon's Controlled Substances Act, since the outgoing CIA director had ordered most MK Ultra records destroyed.
Conor McGregor's Prime and Fighter Decline 1:07:31
The pair praise Conor McGregor's peak performances, especially against Eddie Alvarez and Jose Aldo, comparing his movement to watching a Renaissance artist at work. Joe explains that elite athletic peaks are unsustainable because accumulated damage, training sessions, takedowns, and strikes wear the body down even when fighters still look physically impressive. He contrasts fighters driven by the hunger to become champion with those like Anderson Silva or Jon Jones who thrive on sustaining dominance, noting Jones became UFC champion at 22 and is still considered the greatest heavyweight alive at 37.
Low Kick Fights and Leg Injuries 1:12:32
Joe and Chris discuss the Low Kick Championship, agreeing it feels less brutal than power slap but still produces serious leg breaks. Joe recalls footage of kickboxer Stan "The Man" Longinidis snapping opponent Dennis Alexio's tibia with a checked low kick, and mentions his old trainer Shuki, who once needed a hip replacement after holding pads for Longinidis's kicks. They also discuss compartment syndrome, referencing UFC fighter Austin Hubbard, who needed surgery to relieve internal bleeding and tissue damage in his leg after repeated impacts, with graphic hospital images showing exposed, blackened muscle tissue.
Hyperbaric Chambers and Recovery 1:17:30
Chris Williamson brings up Urijah Faber, who fought Jose Aldo in a bout that left his leg swollen to twice its size and purple. Faber was one of the earliest fighters known to use hyperbaric chambers for recovery, well before the practice became trendy as an anti-aging tool. Rogan notes that Michael Jackson also used one, calling it "wacko Jacko's coffin," and the two joke about Jackson's mix of extreme health habits and heavy sedation. Williamson adds that a well-known biohacker considers the hyperbaric chamber the single most effective intervention he has tried, though its cost and inconvenience keep most people from using it.
Backyard Ultra Races 1:19:32
Williamson describes the backyard ultra format, where runners complete a four mile loop every hour until only one person remains. The race was designed by the creator of a brutal orienteering event, built on the idea that the course itself, not a competitor, should always be the true winner. He mentions Mark Dael's recent 96 hour run covering 395 miles, and Phil Gore, who holds the record at 119 laps and plans to attempt a full 168 hours straight. They discuss the strategy involved, balancing speed against rest, food, and sleep within each hourly window, and recall footage of a runner psychologically taunting a competitor to force him to quit.
Rethinking Fight Cardio Limits 1:22:31
Rogan pivots to Islam Makhachev's teammate Merab Dvalishvili, whose extraordinary gas tank has reset expectations for five round fights. He speculates that the belief fighters can only sustain a certain pace is more about accumulated damage than a hard biological ceiling, and that endurance built in layers, the way ultra runners do it, might let a fighter go 80 to 90 percent for an entire fight. The catch is that building that base costs explosiveness and years, and the physical toll of striking and wrestling limits how far it can go. Merab, at 35 going on 36, is cited as someone who never lets up, reportedly out running the day after winning his world title.
The Mile Record and Altitude 1:25:01
They discuss a runner who broke the mile world record by half a second, running at 16.2 miles an hour and training at altitude, a strategy Rogan calls "legalized cheating" for endurance sports. He says if he were setting up a fight camp, he would put the whole team living and training on a mountain, noting that Dagestani fighters already train at altitude as a matter of course.
Lance Armstrong and Untested Fields 1:27:00
The altitude talk leads to Lance Armstrong, whom Rogan describes as the best competitor in what was, at the time, a fully dirty sport, since nearly every podium finisher was later found to have doped. Rogan extends the point to fields with no testing at all, like business, where someone can take Modafinil and work nineteen hours a day with no rule broken, since there is no governing federation policing performance enhancement outside of sport.
Hunter Biden and the Laptop Story 1:29:01
Rogan recounts interviewing Hunter Biden and the shifting explanations for the infamous laptop, from a 2021 claim it was stolen or possibly linked to Russian intelligence, to a later 2026 account claiming his cloud was hacked and the data was too large to have fit on one device. He notes the added detail that the shop owner who supposedly received the laptop is legally blind and could never confirm who dropped it off, calling the whole story possibly fabricated, while also stressing how strange it must be to live under that level of scrutiny while trying to stay sober.
Election Blame and the Harris Interview 1:36:01
Rogan pushes back on the idea that podcasts, rather than a poorly run and enormously expensive campaign, cost Kamala Harris the election. He insists he tried repeatedly to get her on the show, offered flexible timing including a midnight taping, and was willing to skip any topic her team wanted off limits, but no interview happened. He argues her campaign avoided unscripted conversation entirely and that fear of an unguarded moment, not podcasts, sank her chances.
Debating Kamala and Trump 1:42:30
The conversation turns to whether Kamala Harris would have done anything differently from Joe Biden, with Rogan noting the contradictions in her public statements, like her odd remark about not being able to say Merry Christmas. Williamson jokes about worrying he might come across as too bombastic compared to Trump, and the two discuss how politicians surround themselves with staff to avoid unscripted moments, contrasting that fear with the idea that seeking the presidency should be scary by nature, given the stakes like nuclear war.
Immigration numbers under Trump 1:44:01
Rogan presses on why the previous administration allowed an open border, letting in unvetted people from poor and crime ridden countries without knowing who among them might be dangerous. He argues the border could have been controlled the whole time but wasn't, suggesting the open border served political goals like inflating the census, swaying swing states, and creating new voters through benefits like Medicaid and free cell phones. Data pulled up during the conversation shows illegal crossings fell from 29,000 in January 2025 to 8,000 in February, a 71% drop, and an 88% decline compared to 2023 figures. They also touch on the idea that some of the loudest supporters of open borders live in comfort themselves, using the example of a house in Austin with a defund the police sign next to a private security sticker.
Ozempic reshaping consumer habits 1:48:01
The discussion shifts to how GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic are changing entire industries. Victoria's Secret stock is reportedly up 300% year over year because women losing significant weight are needing new, smaller lingerie. Bridal shops are now having brides sign waivers because so many are losing up to 50 pounds before their wedding day, sometimes missing their fitted dress size entirely. Williamson connects this to a bigger idea, that GLP-1s dampen craving broadly, not just for food, but for things like alcohol, video games, and even relationships, raising the question of what happens to a consumer economy built on craving when a drug can suppress it.
Dosing risks and muscle loss 1:52:00
They discuss concerns that GLP-1 dosing isn't well tailored to body size, with the same amount potentially given to a 500 pound man and a 135 pound woman. A newer drug, retatrutide, is noted for helping preserve muscle mass, which matters because most people who stop GLP-1s regain the weight, often as fat while having lost muscle and bone density on the way down. Williamson stresses that resistance training is essential to offset this, since bodies with poor bone density become fragile, and falls, especially hip fractures in older people, are described as often catastrophic and linked to a sharply reduced life expectancy afterward.
Survival story and sleep deprivation 1:55:01
They reference a news story about an 82 year old woman who survived nine days in a bathtub after a fall, drinking water she managed to trigger with her foot. This leads into a discussion of sleep deprivation, referencing the Lindsay Clancy case, and how a couple of days without sleep can push people into psychosis, which Williamson connects to the hallucinations reported by competitors in backyard ultra endurance races, including Courtney Dauwalter, who once won a race by ten hours.
Nickelback, Hendrix, and formulaic music 1:59:00
The two dig into the Rory MacDonald walkout music story, where a fan who inherited Rory's old phone number kept picking his entrance songs like MC Hammer and DMX without the UFC realizing. This spins into a debate over Nickelback, comparing their song Rockstar to Cypress Hill's nearly identical themed track, with Williamson noting audio engineers criticized Nickelback for recording overly formulaic, effect heavy tracks. The conversation closes on Jimi Hendrix, who played a right handed guitar upside down because he was left handed, a quirk so central to his sound that Fender's signature Hendrix Stratocaster still recreates the reversed headstock and bridge to honor it.
Fading affect bias and forgotten pain 2:08:31
Chris Williamson explains a psychological pattern called the fading affect bias, where painful memories lose their sting over time while good memories stay relatively intact. This is why someone might romanticize an old relationship, miss a burned-out job, or consider drinking again after years sober. The bias exists to protect people from being crushed by past trauma, but it has a cost: it erases the very reasons a person worked hard to change in the first place, since the pain that motivated the healing fades faster than the memory of what felt good about the old situation.
Looping back into bad patterns 2:11:31
Williamson argues that people who seem stuck in repeating cycles, like returning to a bad relationship or falling off the wagon, aren't standing still, they're looping backward because they've forgotten why they needed to stop. Rogan adds that some people find comfort in familiar failure patterns because the pressure of success and the fear of messing up feels overwhelming, so self-sabotage becomes a kind of relief.
The curse of competence 2:12:30
Williamson describes how for people who are naturally good at things, success stops being a cause for celebration and becomes just the minimum acceptable outcome, meaning anything less counts as failure. This creates a perverse incentive where a person can only avoid losing but never truly feel they've won, since the bar for success is set at perfection itself.
Perfectionism on the rise 2:14:00
Williamson cites research suggesting perfectionism, measured through psychological survey scales, has been increasing since 1989, with fear of failure, indecisiveness, and fear of being judged by others rising faster than the drive to set high standards and work toward them. Rogan questions how representative these surveys are, and both link the trend partly to social media, which exposes people to others' possessions, appearances, and filtered beauty standards, fueling comparison and unrealistic expectations.
Excellence versus perfection 2:15:00
Rogan and Williamson discuss data linking wealth inequality to increased self-objectification, such as more provocative selfies from women in areas with bigger gaps between rich and poor, since seeing both how high one could climb and how low one could fall motivates people. They then turn to the idea that perfection itself is impossible, using Roger Federer's stat of winning about 85 percent of matches while only winning 56 percent of points, and Earl Strickland's rare feat of running ten racks in pool, to argue that true excellence, not flawless perfection, is what people admire and should pursue.
Discipline, motivation, and obsession 2:24:01
Williamson distinguishes three relationships to difficulty: discipline is friction accepted, motivation is friction removed, and obsession is friction inverted, where not doing the thing feels harder than doing it. He explains that people with problem-solving brains who lack a good problem to work on will turn that energy toward destructive things like porn, politics, or grudges, while those who direct the same obsessive drive toward training, business, or fatherhood build it into lasting parts of their character over time, like layers cooling into who they become.
Britain's mockery of ambition 2:32:00
Williamson closes by noting that despite Britain having as many top-ten global universities as the United States, it produces only about a fifth as many entrepreneurs, which he attributes to a cultural tendency to mock people who diverge from the normal path, sometimes called the tall poppy syndrome. He contrasts this with America's more encouraging, enthusiastic attitude toward ambition and self-starters.
American Dream Versus British Class Attitudes 2:33:00
You hear Chris Williamson wish he could blend British and American attitudes together. In the US, kids are told they can be anything, and the American dream still feels alive, so people believe they are just a few good decisions away from being rich. In the UK, the class system makes people expect less from the start, which keeps feet on the ground but discourages big swings. Williamson argues that when American adults do not get the success they were promised as kids, it feels like something was stolen from them, which fuels a victimhood culture. He draws a parallel to Korea, where women gained equal access to education over recent decades but then entered a workforce still stuck in old patterns of sexism and wage gaps, producing similar frustration.
Trusting the Process and Good Coaching 2:36:00
Joe Rogan talks about the phrase trust the process, common among coaches and fighters, meaning you keep doing the right things through a buildup toward a goal, like rising through amateur to professional ranks. People who never learn this get angry when success does not arrive on schedule. Rogan stresses that being around like-minded, motivated people is critical, and that isolated lone-wolf types tend to be depressed. Good coaches, he says, have always done the thing themselves and can point out real progress, showing you the improvement you cannot see on your own. Williamson adds that goals often become contracts to self-criticize until success arrives, which is the trap of perfectionism versus the healthier standard of excellence, where you are good as long as you keep improving.
Environment Shapes Outcomes More Than People Admit 2:39:00
Rogan notes that athletes surrounded by great programs and great coaching, like top wrestling schools, statistically perform better than those without that environment. Most people lack that kind of surrounding excellence and instead are around equally lost, unmotivated people, making it hard to choose discipline over socializing. Williamson connects this to what he calls the lonely chapter, where you have outgrown your old friend group but have not yet built a new one, tempting you to return to old habits because failure is simply easier. He mentions growing up in a working-class town in northeast England without role models to aspire to, but with plenty of reverse role models, people whose mistakes, like gambling or infidelity, taught him what to avoid. Rogan shares that a friend raised by alcoholic parents never touched alcohol because he saw firsthand what it destroyed.
Internet Access to Inspiration and Its Traps 2:42:00
Williamson points out that today anyone can hear from admired figures through podcasts in a way that was never possible before, unlike someone like Larry Bird, who only had teammates to learn from. Rogan agrees it is easier than ever to find inspiration, but warns you also have to avoid the tricks of social media that steal your attention, since the same dopamine rush can come from a meaningless video or one that actually teaches you something. Williamson adds that talking about a plan and doing the plan draw from the same mental resources, so many people burn their energy just describing what they are going to do.
The Secret, Visualization, and Unfairness 2:46:00
They discuss the fading fad of The Secret and manifestation culture, including a woman who claimed the Boxing Day tsunami in Thailand happened because locals gave off bad energy. Rogan says visualization is a real element used by many athletes, but it only works paired with an actual plan and real effort, comparing it to rowing the boat rather than just believing God will steer it. He notes survivorship bias explains why only the successes get credited to manifestation. The conversation turns serious when Williamson asks how Rogan makes sense of unfair starting points in life, like being born to addicted parents on Skid Row. Rogan says it is not remotely fair, and that society does little real work to fix entrenched poverty and addiction despite having the resources.
Education, School Boards, and Institutional Failure 2:49:30
Rogan argues that schools receive too little investment and suggests some believe an uneducated, unambitious population is easier to control and tax. He describes school boards labeling protesting parents as domestic terrorists for objecting to curriculum content. He cites a report from Illinois showing many high schoolers unable to read at a fourth grade level, and a state, possibly Oregon, that lowered its academic standards rather than address the failure. He contrasts this neglect with public focus on less consequential debates, joking that reading scores get less attention than whether men can play in the WNBA.
Penn State Cocaine Ring and Closing Exchange 2:51:30
Rogan describes a Penn State fraternity cocaine ring involving two fraternities running drugs between Philadelphia and New York, with one leader's attorney father allegedly helping cover it up and pledges forced to cut and bag cocaine as initiation labor, resulting in fourteen arrests. Both men joke about misplaced entrepreneurial energy before shifting to wrestler Ben Askren, who returned to wrestling a year after receiving a double lung transplant, a recovery Rogan calls beyond insane given the need for immunosuppressants. The episode closes with Williamson plugging his podcast Modern Wisdom, mentioning recent episodes with Jocko Willink, Matt McCusker, and Jeff Dye, plus an upcoming new series called Mostly Wise featuring guests like Hunter Biden, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and Brian Johnson, before the two say their goodbyes.
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